Dr. Bill Campbell and His Recent Research Shift

Brooke Masters: Hi there everybody. Welcome. Welcome to Master Your Metabolism. I am here not just with Calvin, but the Dr. Bill Campbell and we are so excited. Dr. Bill Campbell is, we've been following him for years through all of his research with dietary protein intake to optimize body composition, rapid fat loss strategies, diet break, and just weight loss in general over time. And his most recent work. Calvin and Brooke Masters: Thanks for tuning in to Master Your Metabolism. If you found value in today's episode, it would mean the world to us if you'd hit subscribe and share this episode with someone who could use a little guidance in their health journey. Ready to take the next step? Head over to www.mastersfitnesscoaching.com and you can book a free call right from the site. You've counted every calorie, tried every diet, spent hours in the gym, and still something's missing. You want more than just weight loss. You want your energy back. You want your confidence restored. You want a way of living that doesn't feel like punishment. Welcome to Master Your Metabolism, where we cut through the noise, ditch the fads, and give you a real plan to become the healthiest, strongest version of you. so we can chat about your goals and how we can help support you. Don't forget to join our Facebook group where we're sharing coaching tips, support, and tricks to help keep you on track and continue making progress. You don't have to do this alone. We're here to walk with you every step of the way. Until next time, stay consistent, stay kind to yourself, and keep mastering your metabolism. Brooke Masters: of how our coaching has shifted for the purpose and the reasons that I went through it his Research has changed recently and I am so excited to hear his story get into it and learn all about the new research and What he is studying and finding so welcome welcome. Thank you for being here Calvin and Brooke Masters: hosted by our team of expert coaches with proven strategies, science-based tips, and real life encouragement, not just to help you lose fat, but actually create that lifestyle that you love. You've tried everything. Now, let's try what actually works. This is your turning point. Let's go. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, thank you for the invitation. I feel like we've this five times, but we never actually have done a podcast before. Brooke Masters: I know, I know. We met at a convention. Calvin and Brooke Masters: Let's do this together. Calvin Masters: I was going to say that we've seen him at many events for sure. And I remember the first time that we met him was at the fat muscle event about five years ago in Tampa. And I made it a point that day because I knew he was going to be there. you know, for those that don't know, Bill Campbell is he's a, he's a household name for any coach that has a good, a good knowledge base, you know? So he headed the Matador study, which is, was a huge, huge study that needed to be done that really kind of looked over refeeds, carb refeeds, diet breaks, and fat loss and muscle gain that ⁓ from it or maintenance of muscle. And set the standard for a lot of coaches for many years with the back-to-back carb refeeds and really brought, was a really positive movement. and how coaching is done because of the reduction in negative adaptations. So of course, when I saw him at that, you know, that first event I've had to pin them down and asking questions, you know, and pretty much every event since then Brooke teases me because now this going to make you feel really uncomfortable. she's, she calls you my man crush. When Bill's there, I'm asking questions. I'm to pin them down and sure enough. Dr. Bill Campbell: Hahaha! Brooke Masters: little bit. Dr. Bill Campbell: I love it. Calvin Masters: So it's exciting to have you on today to share your knowledge because ⁓ you are into right now is really going to address the majority of the people listening to this. So I'm excited ⁓ share ⁓ of the knowledge with them. So thanks for coming on. Brooke Masters: Yeah. I think to open it up, ⁓ sorry, I think to open it up, I would love that you would share your reason for your recent shift in research. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, Yeah. So let's talk about what it used to be and what it is now. So my entire career, I've been a fat loss researcher. So back from my graduate school days, there I was studying almost solely women with obesity. Then when I got my own lab, I really started focusing ⁓ more bodybuilding, mostly females. ⁓ and recreational bodybuilders, like people that want to optimize their physiques within a maintainable lifestyle. But again, most of my research focused on younger females losing fat. And then I would say what I've really focused on is maintaining muscle during these diet phases or these fat loss phases. And then probably for the last three years, I've shifted ⁓ of this to studying menopause women or women going fitness women. women who are lead a fitness oriented lifestyle that are going through menopause. so I just call them like, just ⁓ menopause fitness, essentially. So still looking at a lot of fat loss research questions, performance based questions. ⁓ And also asked the reason for this. So the reason was my wife through menopause and she I don't know, probably in her late 40s is when this happened. And she, like a lot of other women, she gained to her a lot of body weight and body fat. And I always say, well, luckily for her, she's married to a fat loss researcher. I've been doing this my whole career, but, and I've helped her in the past lose body fat. And my wife is your typical fitness woman, lifts weights, doesn't do a lot of cardio, but tractor macros, protein and all that. Brooke Masters: Go. Dr. Bill Campbell: But for some reason this time, all of the strategies that I've used with her and others in the past, it did not work. And we just kept lowering her calories to the point where it wasn't very sustainable or healthy. I would also add her weight gain was not the worst her experience. She had other... issues along with her menopause transition that I think were more serious, which I definitely wasn't prepared to help with, but I thought I could help. And she asked me to help with the, you know, the weight loss and because I couldn't that, really stimulated, I guess, just more research questions. And it's funny all throughout my professional career. I've always had a lot of middle-aged women, even though I wasn't studying them, they just communicate with me a lot. And a lot of times they would say, hey, this isn't how it works with menopause women, or when are you gonna study? And I just always kind of just like brushed it aside. And then I guess ultimately the answer is it hit home for me. And I'm so passionate, like it gave me a new fire professionally, because now it's made me learn about progesterone, estradiol, testosterone, the things that, not just calories. There's a lot of other things that I've been forced to learn and I love learning. So it's sad for my wife, but good for my intellectual curiosity, I guess. Brooke Masters: But it's good for your wife because again, it's the validation. And I think a lot of women I know that I coach and after going through it myself and going to multiple professionals and physicians and thinking something is wrong with you to finally have that validation to know, okay, this is not like, it's not me. I'm trying all the things I'm doing all the things and it's not working and there's something else there. So having a spouse that's like, you know what, the reason that you're doing this. is to be able to not just help your wife, but you saw and felt what she was going through and being able to use your research in a way that is going to impact so many women to have that validation, know what's going on and be able to use this knowledge to be able to change the trajectory of where they are. Because a lot of women, because we've always been in shape and always done the things to now feel like you don't have control and you don't know what's going on, it's very defeating. So just... You know, Calvin had his man crush, now like knowing your direction of where you're going, like I'm all about listening and talking to you all the time. So. Calvin Masters: He's spoken for it. He's spoken for it. you know, we've coaching for about ⁓ a bit over 10 years now and ⁓ menopause at us and we had to learn it. But I'm sure you've seen over the last at least five years how much it's actually evolved as far as like the knowledge of it and how much attention has been put on it. You know, because in the beginning when we first started, doctors were still not even acknowledging it was an issue. You know, they were giving women ⁓ handle it, right? Which some of them are still doing that, you know, but there more acceptance now and understanding that when they go to see their doctor that they're not crazy, you know, and that there is something going on. So in the process of that, you know, and in co-genome research, we are finding ways to combat it and we're learning to understand and how to work with it. But what makes your ⁓ work important right now? is what I see happening is that there's a lot of focus that I just learned on how to manage it and get through. who is actually looking at how to take women in menopause and actually have them a cell at the same rate that they did at 20, you know, the fitness related ones, the one that when it continue increasing body composition at a high level. And that's where it gets more tricky. It's not as simple as just managing menopause at this point. Now it's, learning to optimize in that, in that time, the same way they did, you know, prior to that. So I know that there's going to be a lot of great things coming from these studies and is going to contribute to what's going on right now. I don't, I the first person that I know that is actually researching that, to actually work with higher level athletes and keep them at that place where they can still enjoy doing the things they want to do ⁓ at level. So it's, it's, yeah, so this is going to be great things coming out. So I do encourage anybody that's listening to this to follow Bill Campbell's Instagram and, and, and sign up with his classes that he offers with this. Yeah. Brooke Masters: subscription. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. And it's funny, you mentioned the validation. I'm in my mind, I'm going out of my way on social media to validate. I'm I've committed to myself, like I'm going to do a hundred posts about stories, real stories from women, ⁓ like my just like you I mean, I'm also, I'm not going to lie. I'm also using it to recruit for my study, but not a woman ⁓ won't ever want do a study, but. I'm intentionally validating this because I mean, it's hard for me because I'm an energy balance guy. nobody preached calories in calories out more than me. And I still believe it's not like I'm saying that's worthless. I think I'm just open to the idea that this specific population, a small segment of them just don't seem to respond the way that they used to respond. unless that deficit is very aggressive and not sustainable. So I would say I'm open to that idea, but the problem with the research, of which I've published and contributed to, it doesn't account for this. Like it works when you give people a diet, they lose body fat, but nobody's ever given ⁓ fitness women who are saying they're having problems. Nobody's ever. sought out that slice of the population to study them. And that's what I'm seeking to do. Brooke Masters: Yep. And you've already done some research. We've already kind of seen some of the studies that you've done. So can you share a little bit about what you found and things that you have already kind of had in the Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. So I'd say the, the first thing, what we have, we've done a few smaller studies, but they're going to be published in a, in a different sequence. So I'm going to start with the way that we're going to start publishing some of this stuff. So we a large and massive fit menopause fitness This is the first survey ever conducted in resistance trained women. ⁓ And we actually had pre, peri and post menopause, but the main reason here was to do peri and post. So it's funny, there's probably thousands of surveys in menopause population, but never has there been one, because I looked and I had my team look, there's never been one in fitness women. we have, ⁓ there's five domains, a demographic section, and then the four fund sections are a body composition and weight loss resistance section. Nutrition, fitness, which covers resistance training, cardio, power, other Pilates, yoga, all that stuff. And then we have a hormone therapy section to this survey. So the first thing that I want to do is to at least get it out into the research literature that women claim that they are experiencing weight loss resistance. So we're going to publish that part of that survey first. Now, just because you claim it, that doesn't make it true. Maybe they're not adhering to their diet. I mean, I think that's a case for a lot of people, but I don't necessarily believe that's the case for every woman this situation. So if we can get that out there just to say, hey, X of the women in our survey are claiming that they have weight loss resistance. Now I have the validity or the justification to start designing research to investigate that. So we did the survey first and now my lab team is towards the end of planning or ⁓ our protocol to investigate weight loss resistance. And the way that we're gonna do that ⁓ we're going to recruit menopause aged women who claim they have weight loss resistance or not, and they have to be fitness women. And we're also gonna recruit women less than 40 who are premenopausal. And we're going to give them the same diet and have them daily weigh-ins. And we're going to see, is there a difference in the response between these two age groups, essentially? So women who claim weight loss resistance and and then ⁓ younger who should be metabolically healthy and in theory ⁓ aren't with this. So that's we're at now. And then we actually did complete another a rapid fat loss study. I think I may have talked about that. I don't know if we had done it at the time. I think I saw you guys at the, one of the Dallas conferences that, that, that I was at. So we can also talk about that study as well. So that study is done. We just haven't published it yet. Brooke Masters: Yeah, tell me about that one. Calvin Masters: Are you allowed to talk about that before it's public? Dr. Bill Campbell: I am because we presented on it last summer. So me give the theoretical rationale for this. And again, I'm going to sound like a hypocrite based on I did. Throughout my entire ⁓ I've railed against dieting, aggressive dieting. I've said for years, this is not good because the reason it's not good is because you lose lean muscle. ⁓ lean tissue when you when you embrace that and when you lose lean mass lean tissue the Likelihood that you're gonna gain weight after your diet is over is significantly higher So your your long-term outlook is never good when you embrace crash dieting sure it works in the short term lose a lot of fat But you also lose muscle, but then you gain back more fat than what you started with So that's always been my message but as I spent a lot of time thinking through the this, just the inability to lose weight through traditional dieting for some of these women, I said, okay, let's do this. If a 20 or 25 % caloric deficit is just not working, and I think of it as you're just banging your head against the wall, dieting week after week after week, if that's not working, I don't want you to continue beating your head against the wall with a moderate deficit. So what we did was contradicted everything I've ever preached we gave an extremely aggressive caloric deficit and pretty ⁓ extreme protocol. So what we had these women do I mean, this was a case series study, means we just, we ended up with nine women. So we put nine women through this. So there's no control group. There's no comparison. Calvin Masters: Do you know there as a reference like the percentage of the cut for that extreme cut what it was? Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I would say effectively what we had them do on average, they, had them eat about three to 400 calories every day for four straight days. ⁓ the number of calories was really based on 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. And that should have been almost all of their calories. So we said, get that. So that's about 0.75 grams times their weight in pounds. And by the way, these are all fit. Brooke Masters: Wow. Calvin Masters: Okay. Dr. Bill Campbell: resistance-trained women. had three premenopause, ⁓ premenopause, three peri, four post, two on HRT, two that were not on any hormone therapy. So, I'll get to the rationale of this, but I'll explain what we did and then why I decided to do this. So four days of three 400 calories of almost all protein. And in addition to that, during these four days, we had them walk hours a day. So we stack that on top. Brooke Masters: Wow. Wow. Calvin Masters: That's mean. That's mean. ⁓ Dr. Bill Campbell: Yes. So it's only four days. So why did we do this? Well, I already said the one reason. If you're already dieting and it's not working, and I've heard this from a lot of women, unless I eat 1200 calories or a thousand calories or 800, unless I do something so extreme, I can't lose any weight. So effectively what we did was we leaned into this and we said, okay, If the normal moderate deficit isn't working, what about an extreme deficit? Now, historically, horrible idea because you do this for weeks or months. Yeah, you lose weight, but you have all these negative adaptations. Your metabolism gets suppressed, you lose lean mass. But my theory going into this was, the duration is so short, the body will only respond by losing fat. But because you're out of this deficit so quickly, it's not enough time to lose lean mass. that's exactly what we found ⁓ across all of every single subject, all nine. They ⁓ lost a significant amount of fat. I don't remember exactly, but probably two to three pounds over the four days on average. And they all gained ⁓ mass. ⁓ maybe around an average of a pound. And we use pretty sensitive body composition devices. We use the three compartment model. So we're tracking water, body volume and body density. So we use a bod pod along with ⁓ water and we use the standard for bone mineral density. So I say all of that. Our body composition measures were ⁓ very precise. The thing we did to get these measures after those days, We had them come back to the lab and that fourth day or that fifth day, your water's all messed up. So any body composition test is not gonna be very valid. So we still did it just to see what it was, but then we said, hey, we need you to go back to your normal eating for three days. So we calculated like the week prior what their normal eating was. We had them go back to that for three days. Then we retested them confirm. You actually lost fat. isn't all just water changes. You actually did gain muscle or lean muscle, which I didn't expect that, but they did. And they didn't do any resistance training during these four days. was only walking. And then had them come back 30 days later because we know from prior research, when you embrace these very aggressive diets, a lot of times it causes hyperphasia, which is a extreme elevation in hunger. And what happens is in the short term, people have lost fat, maybe even maintain muscle, but over the next month, their appetite is so high that again, they're going to gain more fat than what they had to start with. So we wanted to make sure that this protocol wasn't going to cause harm. We knew it then after seven days, but what about 30 days? Had them come back, they still maintained almost all of their fat loss and still maintain their lean mass gains. So. And we did full blood work to make sure that, you know, we weren't causing any harm. So this protocol, while extreme, I think, and we haven't published it yet, and I'm afraid to publish it because I know people will abuse it. Yeah. But seems like, well, it doesn't seem, it was, and many, of these women were ⁓ very, nothing's for me. ⁓ You know, Brooke Masters: Yep. Dr. Bill Campbell: So it's extreme enough where the body has to respond and it does respond by losing fat, but it's short enough to not lose any of the lean mass. And it's, think it's a viable approach. It ⁓ into again, very calories, but very short of time. Calvin Masters: Yeah. That's really interesting. That's really interesting. So, so what I'm hearing is high protein to protect the muscle, but unexpectedly actually gain muscle from high protein. Dr. Bill Campbell: From walking. Walking was a stimulus for some. And these women were all resistance trained. Calvin Masters: Yeah. I'm wondering if there was a spike in growth hormone from this and then, also the, um, that you're, you're, you're going from zero to 60 or zero to a hundred really in this, in this cut for a short period of time. So there's not time for negative adaptations to set in. So you punch it really hard and then you get back out and bring it out. it's in a sense almost like fasting, but you're supporting the muscle and by supporting the muscle with Brooke Masters: Six hours later. Calvin Masters: using the protein actually worked as a benefit and actually building muscle even in that calorie deficit. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, not much muscle, not much. mean, I'm trying to remember, it's probably like an average of a pound, but I would have expected a loss of lean mass during the full days. Brooke Masters: No, I don't want to. Calvin Masters: Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. That's what I'm seeing. And so it's really interesting because It feels like that, that segment alone could actually expand and go into something, create something actually bigger, you know, as an actual method to be able to maybe reboot somebody increase insulin sensitivity, you know, and I get them out of her rut, you know, so it is aggressive. I don't know how many people will sign on to do it, you know, on our clients, they won't be very happy if I tell them that, but. ⁓ Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. And I look at it like this, compared to my previous studies in younger people, they're losing the same amount of fat that a normally would have taken about four weeks of dieting. So you can ask yourself, Hey, I can diet for four weeks, or I can just bite the bullet, so to speak, and just diet for four days. Now I would like to replicate it and have two weekend days. Brooke Masters: Yeah muscle through it. Dr. Bill Campbell: instead of four straight days, because four straight days, if you work, it's very hard to accomplish this. ⁓ But if you could do Saturday, Sunday, and then the next Saturday, Sunday, like that as a more practical, but we haven't tested that yet. Calvin Masters: Mm-hmm. Yeah, because they won't be able to go into ketosis if the proteins at high. correct, right? ⁓ Dr. Bill Campbell: We did, we tested with like urine sticks, sticks, no, and ⁓ one the measurements is ketones. ⁓ I at least two of the subjects were, according to them, now again, ⁓ it wasn't and it wasn't blood, ⁓ but visually were in ketosis by the second night. And the reason we did those sticks was mainly measure Calvin Masters: So, I'll just... Brooke Masters: Peace. Calvin Masters: Right. Brooke Masters: Yeah Calvin Masters: Hmm. Dr. Bill Campbell: hydration, we wanted to make sure that we weren't dehydrating these women. But we also did get ketones estimates. So nothing that I feel like I can publish in the research, but I can say because I saw, you know, they would send us pictures of the sticks. According to the sticks, were in, at least the two of the women that I remember were in pretty deep ketosis ⁓ at the end of the second night. Calvin Masters: I wonder, I wonder, do you recall if the ones that made it into ketosis, if they actually had better results or was it, was it kind of the same round? Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, the results were pretty consistent. The woman who lost the most weight and fat was premenopausal. And I had the subject, think she was premenopausal and she didn't like her lean mass gain was like less than half a pound. So it was just, and effectively she just maintained. she, I think our premenopausal women had the best and maybe not, I don't want to say the worst, but. the least impressive change, which is interesting. Calvin Masters: Yeah, so you want 180 degrees different direction because your original original claim to fame that I know you from was given refeeds, carb refeeds, high carb days, lower protein and to trigger weight loss, right? are. Yeah, there's Right. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. And I think that's still no means is, is this extreme fat loss protocol, a one size fits all. I, I'm to me and the, for menopause, but you guys are the experts. You're the ones who actually coach them. I would that you try if, okay, this didn't work. Let's try this. It's almost like you're experimenting with different approaches till you find something that does work. Calvin Masters: do it. Brooke Masters: And you have to, everybody is different. Everybody has different histories and different lifestyles, how their body responds. Even women that are going through perimenopause, you can have a hundred women and all of them have different experience, different symptoms, different, you know, what is going on. So that's why I find it like very interesting to be able to do research with this seeing as hormones fluctuate so much during perimenopause. Everybody has different reactions, different changes with these different hormone levels, you know, and Like Matador, we still use Matador with a lot of our clients, like especially the clients, like it was designed for, people that need to lose a large amount of weight. It is a fantastic tool. So, you know, we just appreciate as coaches having all of this data and all this information, all of this research, because it just gives us new ways to look, new ways to implement with clients to have just more tools in the toolbox. And I think that's just what we're all grateful for is that all of the time that you are spending doing this and the ways that you are researching, it just allows people to say, so if that's working, I wonder why, ⁓ really being able to apply it, I think, is just what makes it most valuable. Calvin Masters: That's what makes us so valuable is that is that you know, know that women going into menopause all come from a different place Like you said, you know, so metabolism is going to be different based on what their lifestyle was there's not a lot of certainty in this area right now, you know, there's speculation and things that kind of work but But to have scientific backing to it and to have some things that we know. Okay. Well, this is this is safe and tested this is something that we can use for that. It's been tested with different participants is very nice. For is a luxury to be able to have that to pick from as a tool. it's ⁓ great to have these studies being done. I'm just glad that you're doing them right now. And then have you found ⁓ with women into menopause, like ⁓ you kind touched on this before, but Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. Calvin Masters: if they were workout fanatics, like they live the lifestyle most of their life, and then they go into menopause, have you noticed, at least with your studies that they handle menopause differently? Because it's something that I kind of noticed, and I'm not 100 % sure I was kind of wanted your feedback on this, was had some I had, for example, I had this competitor a few years back, she's 56. and went through menopause, no HRT, no anything. Body very responsive, held muscle, stays lean, the whole thing. But she lives the life. She eats healthy and she's a trainer as well and has done the things. But I noticed a difference with her and then I noticed a difference with the ones that are fitness related. Like they work out, but you have people that live the life and then you have people that incorporate healthy habits into their life. but also go to the other side too, you know, and kind of 50-50 almost. And my experience is the ones that kind of were healthier going in that lived the lifestyle seem to kind of coast through, at least from what I've seen, the ones that were kind of 50-50, I guess you could say, have, they kind of struggled more, I think. You know with it, and I don't know if it's because of the alcohol or what it is and how their body uses that, you know, have you noticed any differences with with this? Dr. Bill Campbell: think most ⁓ my thinking on this is more anecdotal, which ⁓ was gonna ask you guys this. So let me just talk through it. I know there are, well, let me just say, I have lot of women who are the fitness professionals who former competitors or current competitors and coach other women. And they say, I don't know what's happening. I've tracked every gram. So those are the ones that I'm like, man, I believe you. I've always believed bodybuilders with their nutrition. Anybody else? No, ⁓ Brooke Masters: Yeah. We took a bite so far. Dr. Bill Campbell: that you used to Calvin Masters: We'll take it a day to talk. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yes. Yeah. You're not counting the olive oil or something. So again, I explained like this out of a hundred women who say they can't lose weight from dieting, probably 80 of them just aren't really being honest, aren't tracking closely. There are things that could be easily tightened up for a fitness professional. 20 of them. Brooke Masters: Yeah. Yeah. Calvin Masters: Okay. Dr. Bill Campbell: Maybe another yeah, they're just struggling. And then there's another 10 that, man, seems like they're telling me it is working. In fact, I'm gaining weight. And again, are women who have rosters of clients who... I have other fitness professionals and I have plenty of researchers that will tell me they're just lying. They're not. So I'll ask you guys, you guys come across clients that have everything buttoned up and they can't lose weight or no, ⁓ they like what you guys do, there's a predictable weight fat loss response. Like what's your take on it? So I'm asking you as the expert to actually live in the world of coaching these women. Calvin Masters: Yeah, I'll say, and I should be a gentleman like Brokaw first, but I'm going to say ⁓ do feel that when they are on point, like what you're saying, and I know that they stick to it, they do. They have good results. They do. The times that I found somebody like that, that at least came to me that I know that I can trust them and they're doing the things, it ends up being something that when we run labs, we find something hidden. that they didn't even know about, like possibly like an autoimmune disorder or even like long COVID, something like that, which has kind of popped up as of the recent few cases. but it's in a healthy, you know, healthy hormones, at least ⁓ to where they are in that phase. I do find that the ones that stick to it, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. It's just a matter of how much progress really, you know, and there's obviously a lot of factors that go into that, but they always make progress. And the ones that are not making progress, it usually ends up that not a hundred percent true, you know, with ⁓ and things like that. So I know Brooke can answer more because this is her. ⁓ Dr. Bill Campbell: Mm-hmm. Brooke Masters: I don't have to disagree because I was one of those people that was gaining weight out of nowhere and it came down to stress. It wasn't my food. My food was 100 % on point. My workouts were there. It was stressors going on. And when the stressors started happening, it was like my body went to a different place I was gaining and gaining. ⁓ food was exactly the same. ⁓ had changed but the stress component impacting sleep, impacting my ability to recover. So I do think that there are some women and especially there are a lot of competitors that are very type A. And when things happen in their world that change their ability to control all of the things, our stress level will impact. Again, it's gonna impact your cortisol, which is gonna impact your blood sugars, which your body can then switch over and you're just dumping sugars into your body. And I've seen it happen as well and I've experienced it. And it was something that's really scary because stress before perimenopause, before you start going through that transition, you have the hormones that help with resilience. And once those hormones down regulate, you think I can handle all the things like I did before. I have all the responsibilities, but when you don't have the hormones and the pieces that allowed you to do so, things do go haywire. So. you know, progesterone's dropping, you don't have the resilience for stress, so you're stuck in fight or flight all the time, you are going to be dumping sugars, you are not going to be able to control your insulin sensitivity. Like, it's going to be going to a place, but using tools and recognizing it, being able to see that, would have to, like, I'm definitely not the person that was working out before, I definitely had a very rough time through perimenopause. So I tell women now, like, wait, train, do your thing, because it makes it a lot easier. But those of us that are not like, When we start, when things start happening, you also have to keep in mind like the stress component I think is huge that a lot of people don't realize it's not just calories in calories out, but the lack of sleep, the stress and those things also impact body composition. Dr. Bill Campbell: So immediate thoughts. What's frustrating to me as a scientist, and I've heard for years, coaches, just like you say, hey, this is bodybuilding competitors. Stress matters. I just don't know if there's, that's hard to document in research. ⁓ it's, but not I mean, again, I trust coaches. They're the professionals. Researchers are researchers. We're not coaches. The other thing about sleep, Brooke Masters: Next. Dr. Bill Campbell: There is documented ward research. Sleep deprivation causes fat loss resistance. is doc. You find a better quality study when they live in a metabolic ward and they control food intake. ⁓ just real quick, they put subjects ⁓ on times. They had them live in a metabolic ward, I think for like two weeks on two different occasions. One time were sleep deprived. One time they were not. times they reduced their calories by 500 calories per day. They lost significantly less fat when they were sleep deprived, ⁓ caloric deficit, same human, so no genetic variability. So weight loss resistance has been documented in the research literature as a consequence of sleep deprivation and who suffers the most from disrupted sleep during the life cycle, ⁓ women going through menopause and. Brooke Masters: Mm-hmm. Dr. Bill Campbell: I'm just in my head, I'm making a link. If that can be under the umbrella of stress, it makes sense that stress has a, and was your stress like outside life things happening to you or was it just hormonal changes? Brooke Masters: outside life. Dr. Bill Campbell: Okay, and then that... I was thinking it but I wasn't gonna say it. Brooke Masters: You're welcome. Calvin Masters: was waving my hand for the people that can't see. It's me. It's probably me. ⁓ Brooke Masters: But again, you think about sleep anyway. a gestorone is dropping and cortisol is rising, these women are waking up at 3 a.m. They are not getting a full night's sleep. They are not getting a full night's rest or hot flashes or whatever the case may be. So sleep is going to impact it. And that is the first thing when you're talking with women that we work with, you have to have foundations in place. We have to find a way to get you sleeping, hydrated, you know, the basics. And that needs to come first and foremost, for sure. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, and interesting, just going back to my wife's situation, again, lot of issues, but she started progesterone and her quality of life immediately improved. Like that pretty much solved ⁓ all the, now not weight though, so nothing. And then she, like a year later started estradiol. And I asked when I talk about this with my wife, I get asked, hey, Brooke Masters: Absolutely. Absolutely. Dr. Bill Campbell: You said your wife gained weight. How, where is she at now? Like, has she been able to lose weight? And up until the last month, her weight still was higher than what she would have liked. ⁓ would say it's probably about 10 pounds. But know how it is when you're a fit. Yeah, 10 pounds is a lot. Yes. And especially when you're, you know, you're, ⁓ you're, if a sedentary woman and you gain 10 pounds, you might not even know it ⁓ depending where you're at. But I would say in the last month or two, for the first time, she has now lost that weight. And I can't necessarily say she tried over the last two years, consciously dieting. ⁓ do until we ⁓ got her therapy, energy levels were in the toilet, ⁓ no motivation, energy, not feeling good. But even so, I was really hoping, you take estradiol, take progesterone. ⁓ the weight will come off even if you don't try that. It did not happen. is now, which again, makes me optimistic for others. Get through this, ⁓ things fixed. Like you're saying, let's handle the stress, let's handle the sleep, let's get your hormones optimized. And then maybe when you're through this, ⁓ at least in my wife, that's just ⁓ N size of one. Things have improved for her, which I haven't. This is the first time I'm saying that because I couldn't say that three months ago when other people would ask me. Brooke Masters: Right. So she has been through the menopause transition. It has been one year. Dr. Bill Campbell: ⁓ yeah. No, no, she's been post menopause now for probably, probably three years, completely post menopausal. Yeah. Brooke Masters: Same, we were in the same spot. Calvin Masters: That's why I wonder when I hear that because I know that women in menopause and perimenopause are very prone to inflammation due to insulin resistance, you know, and I'm wondering if that could be partially what's happening, even like when they're on HRT and have no hormones regulated and all of a sudden they're not losing weight the way they thought they were going to, their bodies not changing. If it could actually be that they're just more prone to inflammation in the signals in their body. for their hormones aren't signaling properly. And maybe it takes a little bit of time for the body to get to that place where the inflammation goes away before the signals start to work. And is there a way to speed that up, you know, for average person. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, about her insulin sensitivity, all of the normal tests, so fasting insulin, blood glucose, they were all good, like I would say normal, but she's always had pretty good blood work. I will say the first time we got her blood work, her CRP levels, which is a systemic inflammatory marker, that was high. And then that has since come down. ⁓ Calvin Masters: CRP and everything. Brooke Masters: Yep. Yep. Dr. Bill Campbell: But I was thinking the same thing, just, you know, I wonder if your blood glucose is, and that, that wasn't the case for her. Um, and that's where it goes back to it. It's very individualized it, which is so frustrating for me as a scientist, you know, I want to, I want to change a, and expect outcome B and it's just not how the world works. Calvin Masters: Yeah. Brooke Masters: You're not doing nothing. Calvin Masters: I very do. When I think about it and I think about the studies, I think of all the details you have to consider to do that. And I'm like, I would lose my mind. I would lose my mind because it is so much. And even like water intake, like I'm sure you include that into it. Do you have them regulate their water intake at all? Or do you have them just drink as is as they normally do? Dr. Bill Campbell: No. Yeah. So for our weight loss study that we're currently planning, no, that's just calorie, macronutrient calorie focused. ⁓ we don't have them track water. And I'll say in research, the more and more things that you ask greater and greater people quit. you have to kind of, you want to, you want to pull the biggest levers and not overburden, a, a, subject. even in that rapid fat loss, Calvin Masters: Yeah. Dr. Bill Campbell: We had them do ⁓ tests through urine tests. And then if they were dehydrated, we also sent them, we gave them electrolytes and said, get your, cause we, again, I was worried initially, all that walking, some of them live in Florida, low I was worried about dehydration, maybe passing out while walking. ⁓ So were on top of it. But even in that study, we didn't. We didn't make them drink X amount of water. We just made them track their hydration status. Calvin Masters: Yeah, okay. The answer is that because I know that, you know, dehydration can increase cortisol and I was thinking of that as one of the possibilities. But if you're checking their hydration, then you know that it's okay. And there's not cortisol spikes with that. So so I can't use that leverage for my clients because I'm trying to get them to drink water. And it's one of the hardest things to do apparently to get someone to do that, you know. Brooke Masters: Very nice. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, we did. Yeah, for some, we did do a Dutch test or two just to look at cortisol. And again, that was, that was normal. So again, it's all the things like you almost want there to be something that says, Yeah. Calvin Masters: Right. Yeah, you want that. Yeah. For research for you, you to see that for sure. And then for like gut health, is that is that a part of the equation as well? Do you guys run like GI maps or anything like that? Dr. Bill Campbell: No, I haven't done that, but the more I get into this, think that's an area that, that, you know, ⁓ this philosophy of if not this, then this, if not this, then this, I think that's an area that will eventually I'll get out. I will get to, but again, right now you can do one intervention because you have to, know, and it's not like coaching coaching. can, you would be bad coach if you only changed one thing. But in research, if I change three things, then we don't know what caused what. So I actually, I didn't make my wife, but I said, hey, let's just, let's do progesterone first. What's happening with that? Then we did estrogen, estradiol, and then she had wanted to do testosterone with estradiol. I'm like, well, you know, if you do both, we're not gonna know ⁓ what. what caused what. So now we're at the point where she's very dialed in with progesterone and estradiol. And literally this week, she'll make a decision on whether she wants to do testosterone. And let me get your advice on that. What, if you have a client who's on, you know, Brooke Masters: 100%. Calvin Masters: for testosterone? ⁓ I I've seen do well that have actually been with lower testosterone, but not to their full potential, you know, always ⁓ when we catch it. And then say if they do decide to go on testosterone, there's definitely an improvement in their body composition, fuller muscles, energy, know, the things that come with it. But I have been able to get females into ⁓ contests, you know, shape stage lean, even in even a menopause with low testosterone, you know. Brooke Masters: motivation. Dr. Bill Campbell: Mm-hmm. Calvin Masters: So it almost seems like it is just relative to the person, how their body takes it. The same is with guys. You know, I've turned guys pro that had 300 testosterone total tests. Yeah. And so it's just how they're, some guys could never do that. You know, it just, so I think that's one of the things that it really is. just depends on the person and it may be a stress related thing. I don't know, but I have seen it that we can do it. But when they do acknowledge it and do actually get TRT or HRT and it's balanced properly, there's no question. There's no question they advance way quicker and they just are hitting all the marks and all the areas, you know. But at the same time, at the same time, kind of like what we were saying, ⁓ is not the end all, you still have to do the other things to make that work properly. ⁓ know, so that's especially in menopause, you know, if they're eating garbage and but they're using HRT, they can't expect to really get the same results as somebody that's, you know, doing the things that they should be doing to support it. Brooke Masters: Just really Calvin Masters: You know, so it could be that, you know, even with the lower testosterone, if they're eating the right foods or bodies functioning on a high level that they can still accomplish the same things, but probably the level. Yeah. ⁓ Dr. Bill Campbell: Well, that's what's interesting. My wife, doesn't have low testosterone at all. In fact, I told her her normal testosterone levels and I'm focused a little bit more on the free testosterone. like, your level now, and this is what our, you know, when she wanted to do it maybe like a year and half ago, like, your level naturally is what other women are taking to get up to. So that was another reason that I said, just keep that in mind when you. know, if you want. And again, she didn't want to, but she was asking the questions. you know, I did what I did, though, want to not just throw all three at once. then it's like, well, what do we just ⁓ it's not going well? Calvin Masters: Well, with their way her total test was was optimal then was there free testosterone optimal as well or was was a free testosterone? Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah, no, free was free was like high. fact, one time it was so high they had, they retested it. I can't, I want to say it was like 4.6. ⁓ and. ⁓ Calvin Masters: Okay, well, that's and that was in Perry or postman pause or Perry. Dr. Bill Campbell: We've tested it every year. And again, the next one should come back any day now. I would say it's always been like high threes, low fours, free. And that's why I'm like, Brooke Masters: And again, just looking at the Dutch to see how, you know, what you're doing. Calvin Masters: Yeah, I'm wondering about the androgens. It sounds like ⁓ androgens. ⁓ Dr. Bill Campbell: Yes. ⁓ yes, I do have, I, did do, I think we did two Dutch tests on that. So yeah, that would be the next logical to see how it's being metabolized. Calvin Masters: Yeah. Brooke Masters: Yeah, yeah, because again, I always tell people like you want to go based on symptoms. know, levels are one thing and what's on labs is one thing, but if you feel okay, you're not having any symptoms, like there's really not a reason, you know, other than if you're starting to have, you know, markers of cardiac issues, you're starting to have, you know, signs of osteopenia, like things like that, that you with estradiol, like you'll start taking because there is high risk if you are low. If you have a fall when you are older and you're losing muscle mass and you don't have the bone density and you go to fall, you are going to be at high risk that all of a sudden your health will spiral and go into a bad place. So looking at symptoms, but again, looking at risk factors through labs and keeping an eye on things, that's how I usually tell people because for me, was like the anxiety came first. So progesterone had to be on board first and it is, it's life changing for those women that are having poor anxiety. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. That was your story too? Brooke Masters: I couldn't go to work sometimes. Like that was my first symptom. And then it was okay, low libido started coming. And I always tell the story, like my doctor, the first thing was like, maybe you're just not attracted to your husband anymore. I'm like, no, don't think that's it. know, giving me all the things and I was having... Calvin Masters: You still go to that doctor. don't even know. Really? Brooke Masters: But this is what both women, know, here, take some birth control here. You know, you can't go to work, like have an antidepressant and it'll chill you out. Like this is what we were told. Like I'm same thing, three years post and my doctor didn't give me any information. So, you know, when I do things now, kind of like you, I'm doing my post to be able to educate women, validate their feelings and what is going on. So I would ask you, my next question would be with your research and your future research. What would be like your vision? Like what you want to be able to do with this research and how you want to make an impact? Dr. Bill Campbell: I think I would love to have an answer. weight loss resistance exist? in a certain small subset of women going through menopause. I won't be doing the research if I weren't open to the idea, but yeah, again, I'm not there watching them track every gram. So that's the research question I wanna answer. Calvin Masters: It'll take time. It'll take time to get these answers. know, it's true. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. Yeah. And then I think we're going to the, after we get this study going, we're going to do another case series study where I think, I think you may have heard me talk about this before. having women who are lifting weights, fitness lifestyle, who have not yet started hormone therapy. ⁓ they start having them track body composition, and metabolites Dutch test to see what's going like, what happens when they start this, because that's very, again, we don't have research in fit women doesn't exist. And the, the, the current research that does exist on let's just say hormone therapy is all over the place. As the women who reach out to me. ⁓ I'll give the example. Hey, I started estradiol. I gained five pounds of fat. Another woman. I started estradiol, I just lost five pounds of fat. Another woman, I just started estradiol, I don't feel like anything's changed. So the anecdotal stories are all over the place, as is the research with hormone therapy related to body fat. Brooke Masters: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Calvin Masters: Yeah, well I have currently right now a first timer competitor. She's 45 in Perry and has Hashimoto's. and also is not an HRT and and she's um I I would tell you they lose a lot of weight in that reverse you know when when you know that right they do very well with that but she is crushing it we're we're looking at anywhere from a pound to two pounds per week in the in the drops right now and 45 parrot yeah and so um she had to cut out a couple things out of lifestyle so she is doing well So it'll be interesting to see with that one, you know, how that ends up going. Cause you know, how she is, it obviously throws a wrench and things, you know, when, especially when stress comes through and gut issues are another big one. You know, the gut issues, boy, that's, that would be the one thing that would be worth looking into with, with menopause, perimenopause. They seems to be pretty common, you know, from the hormone dysregulation or dysregulation. you know, when I really see that is, is when they're in prep and they get into that final stage, we can, everything can go great. and great, great. Then we get in that last month and I could be using refeeds and all of a sudden the refeeds aren't working. Their weight comes up and it just stays up and just holds like an inflammation. It took me a while to figure this out. What was causing this? trying, I'm like, well, I'm reducing the amount of the refeeds. It's still not working. I can give them one cup of cooked rice as a refeed and their weight still comes up. I'm like, what is going on? but that stress comes in and then it flares up the gut and that's what I found is what's happening. So now when we deal with menopause, we kind of address the gut right out of the gate. Dr. Bill Campbell: What do you, what's your, like just if you were to give a general strategy, what are you doing to at least monitor or even a strategy to address? What do you do? Calvin Masters: Well, as far as the monitoring kind of establish if they do have a gut issue, a lot of it is just questions asking them, know, digestion, are they regular, you know, those things also. Another way. Brooke Masters: watching fiber, water. Calvin Masters: Another way that we can kind of catch it is like if we do a reverse and they start gaining weight, you know, and we kind of narrow things down and say if they are on point with everything, then we find that it's actually an inflammation from not necessarily carbs themselves, but a certain type of carb that causes like some have a reaction from sweet potatoes right away that lets me know that something's off with the guy. So that needs to be addressed. So for us, we like to handle it to kind of combat it, like the low hanging fruit where we don't have to go to a full-blown gut protocol. is do a reset like an insulin reset in the beginning where we pull the training out completely, completely just walks at that time and bring them back in that parasympathetic state. But we remove the carbs, bring the healthy fats, try to get inflammation down and lower protein. So we run that for probably about a week depending on severity of it. And then we just follow up with a flush, ⁓ you know, we just load them with nutrients, put them into a calorie surplus, still not training ⁓ full volume, if they are trained at all, even at this point. We typically run that for a couple weeks. we find that when we do that, that they will start dropping weight and that reset and continue to drop weight into the flesh. So we got three weeks of weight drop. And ⁓ the time they come out of this, ⁓ ⁓ not have fixed the gut completely. I would say we definitely didn't fix it, depending on what the issues are, ⁓ it's in a much better place. Inflammation is gone. Now we have an area ⁓ work with. ⁓ then we can establish, we should probably run a GI map or something, or we can get better feedback because their body's not so inflamed. The responses are more precision and detail. We can see them easier once they've been cleaned out, you know, and then we can test the foods. ⁓ that's our typical approach with that, but we try to keep it as minimal with supplements as possible, you know? Brooke Masters: Yeah, and the basics too, like just making sure that they're slowing down what they're eating, making sure they're not running around and doing everything while they're sitting and having a meal, making sure they're chewing their food really well, their fiber is in a good place where their calories are, adequate water and hydration. It's like those basics, limiting processed foods. And once you see all of those things and they are moving and active, those things alone for most people, we'll just get things moving. Again, if there's more and you see something after that, usually that's the next step is, okay, let's dig deeper and get a GI map and make sure that we're not fighting some other beast that we're not aware of. Calvin Masters: And I will say that we have learned that every woman that we have that's in perimenopause come to us if she's been under eating, the first thing we do is an insulin reset every single time. we find if we do that, then we start to reverse them up. They have much better progress, much better. ⁓ of kind of like keto. Yeah, kind of like keto. A like keto, actually. And and. Dr. Bill Campbell: What's an insulin? Is that just like a keto or a? Calvin Masters: So we will put veggies in, but carbs we try to keep them around, you know, total grams around 50 grams, right? And the protein will bring to about 0.8 times lean body mass. So it's low, you know, they're not building muscle that week. But you do that to release the inflammation, you know, and so then the good fats, we bring them up. pretty good amount, but we still keep the calories pretty low. But in a lot of these cases, I'm sure you've experienced this, that these women are eaten less anyway. They're coming to you in like 800 to 1000 calories a day. And their bodies are so stressed and inflamed, that when we put them on that reset, even though it's low calories, probably their basal metabolic rate, it's still actually an increase from where they were. And they're very responsive to it and usually more protein than what they're eating, even at that low amount. So it pushes the protein up little bit. They come in, we get them out walking. it's like pulling teeth together not trained because now they're under eaten and they're training like crazy. ⁓ their weight just drops. ⁓ seen huge drops. But if we get that information out and kind of burn through some of that excess glucose and then start working protein back up, and then working the cars back up and shifting it over, it's almost a no fail that when we start that reverse that ⁓ we one of was 60 years old, I think 25 pounds on her reverse alone before she even got to a cutting phase, you know. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yeah. You ever used the flush diet like a starting point or no, that's always after. Calvin Masters: We do more now. We do now. We didn't in the beginning, but we're in that now. Dr. Bill Campbell: How does, what has been, how was that? What is your impression of that? Effective for some, not all. Calvin Masters: It's I think. Brooke Masters: Not all, I would say, but I would say a pretty good amount. I mean, my clients that I'm using that with, you know why? Because many of the people that we start doing it are the under eaters. So, bringing their calories up, releasing some cortisol because they've been so chronically under eating, giving their body the nutrients and lots of antioxidants, lots of healthy fats to bring inflammation down. And just, again, protein is on the, not, I would say, moderate. Dr. Bill Campbell: Yes. Brooke Masters: But again, that helps. if they do have digestive issues from whatever they've been doing in the past, it rests the digestive system. So overall we get a really good response from it. again, it's just to each person and what they were doing before. I had someone that was eating 300 calories. I don't know if she did your study, kind of hung out there and did it for like a couple of years, but I got her and she was 300 calories. That's all she was eating for ever. And she's like, my weight's stuck. I'm like, okay. So we reversed her on the same thing. She lost like, Calvin Masters: Thank you. Dr. Bill Campbell: Oof. Brooke Masters: Probably about 30 pounds in the reverse and I got her all the way up to like 2200 calories Dr. Bill Campbell: Wow, that's awesome. Calvin Masters: She was mid-16, I believe, on that one. Her stomach went away. was a... Definitely, definitely a thing. You know, I think with the flush, one thing that I think kind of makes a difference is their insulin levels, because the flush is really good at bringing insulin up and kind of getting it to fire off correctly, because you know, with stress, ⁓ insulin can drop and then the pancreas isn't really firing off well, and it's not delivering that. So the flush is great for that. Brooke Masters: Yes. Calvin Masters: and can kind of get that, but that's why we do the reset first just to kind of clear out glucose and do that. But the reset works a lot. When we don't see them drop weight on a reset, we know there's an issue, you know, right away with that. Dr. Bill Campbell: Mm-hmm. Calvin Masters: And so, um, and it's probably cortisol, you know, because, you know, pulling the carbs and having that that's when we. Split over to a flush anyway, you know, because the flush will kind of go in and it kind of counters it's 180 degrees different direction. two pair well with each